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The Seven Faces You will Encounter in Debate, online and off and how to deal with them.

Posted: November 18, 2023 by datechguy in oddities

It’s my experience over a long life that you will find seven different types of people when you debate a subject of some importance that you have a strong opinion on. Here are my suggestions on how to deal with such people:

  1. The ignorant

One must remember when dealing with the ignorant that ignorance about a subject is not the same as stupidity. In fact it worth remembering that just about everybody is ignorant about more things then they are knowledgeable or even informed about.

The way to deal with ignorance is to provide information. How they react to that attempt will give a clue if you’re dealing with the willfully ignorant (who want to avoid a moral or difficult subject to avoid having to make a choice) or the uninformed. One must remember that being informed doesn’t automatically mean they will come to your point of view

  1. The stupid

There are some people who are simply not able to grasp certain things. When dealing with the stupid no amount of information or argument will have an effect so unless you wish to provide evidence on an argument within a social media timeline one is better off not wasting the short valuable time you have on earth getting worked up over an argument with them.

  1. The indifferent

There are people who simply don’t care about the things you do. Maybe their priorities are different than yours, maybe they have personal issue that override anything you might care about or maybe they just want to be left alone.

In this case one should remember that freedom of speech also means the freedom to not listen to your speech. It doesn’t matter what the issue is, if people don’t want to listen to you respect that choice. If the issue is their own imminent life & death (and I mean life or death NOW not in a month or a year or 30 years) you might press a little harder but odds are that won’t be the case online so if people want their space give them the freedom to have it.

  1. The different perspective

These tend to be the most interesting while at the same time being the most frustrating people to deal with in a debate. They are people who will look at the same facts as you and come to a completely different conclusion from them. Except in the case of mathematics one must remember that this is totally legitimate. Perhaps they have more or different information than you. Perhaps they have a different background or family history or give more weight to one part of the fact trail than another. Or perhaps they just look at things differently because by definition they are different than you as everyone else in the whole world is.

These are the people that I find most enjoyable to deal with because you can learn from their perspective and they keep you honest because as I like to say, if your argument is worth anything it should be able to stand up to critique. I find these folks are rare and while fun online are even more fun in person over a good lunch.

Stockpile such people as they are a great treasure.

  1. The mercenary

These are the anthesis of those who I just mentioned. They tend to have an agenda that is usually paid, in fact said agenda might be their primary source of income. No amount of information or argument makes a difference here and the best move is to simply disengage.

Occasionally if it’s an issue of sufficient importance you might take the trouble to expose the financial motive if possible but be wary as you don’t know if this is the only way this person feed their family and who are you to take the food out of the plate of this person’s kids?

Oh, one more thing about a mercenary. Depending on the issues you might find one who is on your side. That doesn’t make them any less of a mercenary so be wary in terms of trust because by definition they are only a higher paycheck away from betraying you.

  1. The Fanatic

The fanatic carries a religious or religious like belief in what their worldview. Usually based in Marxism or some kind of sexual or gender ideology or occasionally in actual religion. No amount of facts is likely to change them and you will beat your head against the wall doing so.

Furthermore such people are the most dangerous, particularly online as they are the type who will give you actual bodily harm in the service of said fanaticism and belief it as righteous. Beware of them and when possible disengage and block them.

But do pray for them, because there is one irony about them. If they are in such a bubble and manage to escape it by either the pressure of reality or the grace of God they often become the bravest warriors to stand with in a time of danger.

  1. The Malicious, dishonest and/or dishonorable

There are some folks who are just evil. Who life for the sake of lying, who hate for the sake of hating or take joy in the discomfort of others. Such people just want to wind you up for their own amusement.

Avoid them like they were the plague because they are.

One quick closing thought, remember that you do not always know who online is real and who is not. Act accordingly.

First Amendment 101 in North Andover

Posted: November 17, 2023 by datechguy in internet/free speech, opinion/news
Tags: , , , , ,

Apparently there was a big fuss about North Andover flying the Palestinian Flag.

When I first heard about it my first thought was “oh brother here is the woke Democrat left in action.”

Then I actually read the story and it changed the picture for me.

Apparently the town (like Fitchburg) allows various flags to be flown if petitioned to do so. Earlier this month the flag of Israel was flown.

A group of Palestinian supporters petitioned to have their flag flown under the same rules. There was a rather contentions meeting over it and a lot of people were angry but in the end the request was lawful and the flag is flying now.

As a very public supporter of Israel actions in Gaza to destroy Hamas let’s cut to the chase.

This was not only the right decision but the smart decision.

It was the right decision because:

  • 1st Amendment rights are supposed to be allowed equally without playing favorites
  • the proper answer to speech someone opposes is more speech
  • the proper procedures and rules were followed
  • It is right because one should always support lawful methods of public expression
  • It is right because it supports the rule of law applied equally
  • The flag in question was not one of a recognized terrorist group.
  • It’s an important lesson in citizenship and civics, particularly for the young and new arrivals
  • It is just

And it is smart because

  • You should always support peaceful forms of expression of ideas
  • You can’t demand enforcement of laws against violent expression when you don’t apply them for peaceful one
  • People who are able to vent peacefully are less likely to cross a line later
  • You can’t expect people to respect your rights if you don’t respect theirs
  • If you don’t defend those rights when in power you won’t have them when you’re not
  • if you’re opinion is worth anything it should be able to stand up to the other guys opinion being expressed
  • the right thing is always the smart thing

I can certainly understand why some would object, frankly my own 1st instinct was against it but either you’re for the rule of law or you are not and this is lawful application of the 1st Amendment.

Now if the city wants to change their rules on flags (consistent with our constitution of course) that’s up to them but the law need to be respected and enforced and the rights of citizens under that law MUST be respected.

Otherwise what’s the point of being American?

Update: A lot of people who generally agree with me disagree on this one but let me make one important point:

The Biden admin and the FBI not withstanding there actually isn’t a “I think those guys are a******s” exception to either the 1st amendment or the principle of equal application of the law.

Three interesting Hospital Videos from the Israel Hamas War

Posted: November 16, 2023 by datechguy in Israel, Israel vs Hamas
Tags:

I want to hit you with a pair of videos that I think speaks volumes.

You have seen Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus on networks around the world giving update on Gaza and challenging the Hamas narrative of the MSM everywhere. Today he was in Gaza going through a hospital in a single shot without cuts here:

The combined with the video from CNN the day before really makes the point about hospitals that israel has been making for a long time.

Having CNN seeing the stuff really make it hard for them to push the narrative that’s why this video is so big:

Both of these are big and make the point but there is one video that wasn’t produced by either the MSM or Israel that I think is the most significant:

Now take a good luck at the video of the panic and note the oddity. Which I think of panic in a hospital, expect to see doctors, and patients, and sick people and families running around but that’s not what we see, instead we see a bunch of apparently healthy looking military age men scared to death that Israel is about to attack.

Of the three videos, this of is, in my opinion the most telling of all. It shows who is actually getting the fuel and the supplies and it shows who the international community is actually in such a hurry to protect.

Of course our friends in Hamas might think the other two are more important as they signify what is in store for those hiding in other hospitals further south.

What’s Anti-Semitic and What’s Not

Posted: November 15, 2023 by datechguy in culture
Tags: , , ,

Ok let me start this post by noting two things up front:

  1. I am an unabashed supporter of Israel’s response to what Hamas has done and am horrified that anyone believes that
    • Hamas’ attack on Oct 7th can be justified
    • That Oct 7th was a false flag (yes there are some of those)
  2. Looking back at History over the last 75 years I conclude that other than the Jews there are no people the Arab/Muslim world hates more than the Palestinians. Consider:
    • They have been used and exploited by the Arabs since the first day Israel existed
    • They have been used as a wedge both by the eastern bloc during the cold war by Arab states against the Jews ever since.
    • Their own leadership (and others) have used them as a cash cow to wealth & power while letting them stay poor.
    • Countries like Iran have used them as expendable in order to advance their agenda
    • In every Arab country they have settled in they are treated at best as 2nd class citizens at least when they’re not being slaughtered
    • Any one of them who would actually be willing to make peace would have the life expectancy of a Jew in Gaza with no IDF.

Frankly if I was raised a Palestinian I’d be damn angry too.

Ok so let’s cut to the chase of this post. The word “anti-Semitic” has been out there a lot lately and if people want it to avoid it becoming as meaningless as the left has made the word “racism” it’s important to use it correctly and acknowledge that there is a difference between something or someone being “anti-Semitic’ and something or someone being “wrong” about something.

To this end I have made a small but likely not complete list:

  • It is a legitimate opinion that Israel’s response to Hamas’ Oct 7th attack is the wrong one. Holding that opinion doesn’t make one either a Jew hater or anti-Semitic. Now I myself think such an opinion is about as idiotic as the no cash bail business in US cities which reward bad behavior and create more of it, but that doesn’t make one anti-Semitic, it makes one, in my opinion a fool, but not anti-Semitic.
  • It is a legitimate thing to hold a march in favor of the Palestinians and rallies in support of same with speeches and signs both on campus and in large cities provided said marchers:
    • Obey local laws
    • Do not commit vandalism
    • Do not commit violence
    • Do not call for the extermination of Jews or the destruction of Israel

(If anyone sees the supports of the Palestinians manage these four things please let me know as that would be breaking news).

  • It is a perfectly legitimate opinion to argue that the creation of the state of Israel in 1948 was either a bad idea or caused more problems for the world then it solved. To argue that the Jews had no more right to a Jewish state in the land they were practically erased from 2000 years ago then the Aztecs have a claim to Mexico city because they had an empire there till the 1500’s is not anti-Semitic.

I don’t hold that opinion and one can no more predict an alternate past then one can predict the future. I can only note that for the Jewish people having a homeland in their ancestral lands has been a plus in terms of racial and cultural identity and given the horrors of the holocaust it has given them the power to ensure their survival as a race. That seems like a pretty strong case for the state of Israel, particularly when you consider how Arab Israeli’s have done, seemingly a lot better than those around them (at least those who don’t have oil).

That opinion btw crosses the line into antisemitism when it becomes an excuse to attempt to wipe out a firmly established internationally recognized state and slaughter the people in it.

  • It is not anti-Semitic to argue that the Arabs who have been in the land that is now Israel were there for hundreds or even thousands of years and while there have been multiple empires ruling over them from the Romans to the Byzantines to the Ottomans to the Brits to even the Crusaders for a time that their attachment to the land is just as legitimate as anyone else.

This frankly is the strongest point in favor of the Palestinians and one that I believe is not resolvable without their consent because they can argue that the UN mandate was carried out without their consent. It’s basically an eminent domain case.

  • It is not anti-Semitic to note that because the Muslim Arabs in the middle east have a different culture than the west it is perfectly legitimate for them to look Israel in general and all of these thing in particular in a different light than a person with a western culture and a part of western civilization does. That in itself is no more anti-Semitic or evil then a Hindu in India circa 1845 looking at the British rule differently than the west did.

Now once that cultural difference becomes an excuse to slaughter Jews in their sleep or murder them with impunity then I would argue that not only does it become anti-Semitic but both the west in General and Israel in particular have the right, indeed the obligation to treat such actions in the same way that Sir Charles James Napier treated the practitioners of Suttee in India.

  • It is certainly not anti-semitic to call for a Palestinian state not named “Jordan” which was to be the original Arab state established by the UN mandate. In fact given the way the Palestinians have been treated by all the Arabs in the area a state separate from both Israel and the Arab states that surround it might be the only solution for them to get a fair shake, provided those in charge of such a state are not either kleptocrats who rob their own people blind or killers who want to use such a state as a staging ground for attempt to destroy Israel or both

If you can explain any way to avoid having such people in charge let me know.

  • Finally it is not anti-Semitic to deny the existence of the God of the Jews or consider the Jewish religion as bunk. In fact there are plenty of Jews who think this is the case (the old Joke goes “Jews are a people who believe in one God or less”) Now as a Christian in general and a Catholic in particular I say such a denial is not only bunk but a great danger to the soul but having that opinion is no more anti-Semitic then saying that Mohammad is no more a prophet of God than my older brothers are is anti Arab.

Well this is my list, if you want an easier guide to if someone is anti-Semitic or someone just holds a different opinion I have a really simple rule of thumb.

If someone is lying to your face about things like:

  • Jews are colonizers and were never in Israel
  • there was never a Jewish temple in the holy land
  • There are no hostages being held by Hamas
  • The Jews are committing genocide against the Palestinians

Odds are you won’t go too wrong thinking “anti-Semite” although given what I’ve seen of students today if you want to go with “ignorance” you likely aren’t doing bad either.

Finally the discloser bit. I’m not a Jew, I’ve never considered becoming Jewish and my only connections to Judaism are:

  • 1/8th of my nieces and nephews both from blood and marriage are married to Jews (both nephews who married Jewish women).
  • My Catholic faith is completely derivative of Judaism. My God is the Jewish God and I state that his son is the Messiah of the Jews. Or as I like to joke: The difference between Christians & Jews is:
    • Jews think we’ve jumped the gun
    • We think they’ve missed the boat.

So if you are Jewish and think I’m wrong about these evaluations of what is anti-Semitic and what isn’t feel free to leave your opinion in comments or write a post rebutting me at your site.

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